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Bubblyblubber
Nov 17, 2014

Torquemada posted:

A couple of complaints about Dunc2.

The Fremen are not jihad-y enough. If I remember the book correctly, they're absolutely religious loonies. The film has religion be optional to Fremen, to the point that Chani and her friends are happy taking the piss out of Stilgar while he's praying: it also portrays them as super insular, and dedicated completely to Arrakis and their vision of it. They don't seem like they're so religious they'd go on a massive crusade to convert the galaxy, anyway.

Also the lasers are great, and terrifying, but having established their almost limitless destructive potential in a couple of scenes, there's no need for nuclear weapons. Just wiggling a laser at the emperors army would transform them into the world's largest bowl of salsa. For that matter, the Harkonens could have sliced up worms threatening their harvesters.

Otherwise fantastic in all regards, an improvement on the first in the series, and so much better than it's source material they might as well be different properties entirely.

everytime there's no jihad on the screen the audience should be asking "where's the jihad?"

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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
lesser jihad in the last 10 minutes, greater jihad throughout the movie, ezpz

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

don't worry, messiah will contain lots of 1) jihad and 2) disillusionment with jihad

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
yeah, there's completely-disillusioned fremen proper in messiah

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



Bijaz, leave!

Speleothing
May 6, 2008

Spare batteries are pretty key.

Tree Bucket posted:

The flame around the emperor's orb ship during the dust storm might also help explain why shields aren't great in deserts. It looks like the shield is trying to block every wind blown dust particle

Yes, that's the way shields work. They can block everything . Personal shields are tuned so that air can get to your lungs, but a spaceship (or a fortess-palace) has its own oxygen supply so they just are set to block everything. And even if you reset it to allow air to pass, sand that's moving even a couple of km/h will be stopped.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Yeah, despite the medieval seeming aesthetics the whole thing is that the Imperium relies on very advanced technology to maintain their status quo, and the other whole thing is that Arrakis is an extremely hostile environment from every angle where much of that technology struggles to function and/or isn't nearly as useful if not an outright liability, thus the Fremen have a massive home turf advantage. They have their own technology that's simple and rugged as a rule. (Especially since thumpers are usually single-use)

Some people saw comparisons to Iraq (either time, really) and the royal palace resembling the Green Zone, a fortified centre of fragile control where the only native inhabitants are in servant roles. But none of this is new, of course, imperial adventures turning into clusterfucks in the desert was a centuries-old cliche when Frank Herbert was first writing.

Just Another Lurker
May 1, 2009

FMguru posted:

If I remember the book correctly, people didn't use shields in the desert because it had the effect of making every sandworm within a couple dozen kilometers make an enraged beeline for it

That's used in Children Of Dune where Pauls guide activates a shield to draw a worm onto them (it's shown in the tv version).

Tree Bucket posted:

The flame around the emperor's orb ship during the dust storm might also help explain why shields aren't great in deserts. It looks like the shield is trying to block every wind blown dust particle

In the movie one of the Sardukar says the storm is causing shield issues and that they should return to space.

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon
Worms are resistant/immune to lasers in the books, at least by the testimony of everyone's favorite dickless worm

Soul Dentist
Mar 17, 2009
From the current events thread

GD_American posted:

I read the worst political article of all time.

I am only posting the lead.

You will never, in a million years, guess the two sentences following this excerpt.


quote:

I first started reading the Dune novels in my teens. The amazing works by Frank Herbert had the most profound effect of any work of fiction on my nascent, developing brain.

The stories are epic. The far-distant future universe he created is strange and wonderful. The characters are deep and tortured. Somehow, like Tolkien before him, Mr. Herbert masterfully weaves in profound commentary on political philosophy and current affairs of the 1960s, when the first novels were written.

Even a young teen like myself, who was easy to hop into the stories as I was about Paul Atreides’ age), could see the parallels between the Dune spice and Middle East oil and between the Atreides-Harkonnen age-old conflict and the US-USSR animosity.

Like all great fiction, the settings of the novel give Mr. Herbert free rein to comment on the frailty of the post-Cold War Order.

Here is but one of innumerable examples of the political wisdom of Mr. Herbert (from Children of Dune):

Good government never depends upon laws, but upon the personal qualities of those who govern. The machinery of government is always subordinate to the will of those who administer that machinery. The most important element of government, therefore, is the method of choosing leaders.


One of the major events in the first Dune novel (and the brilliant adaptation – though a bit slow – by Denis Villeneuve in 2021) centers on the test of the gom jabbar. The main character – Paul Atreides (who we later learn is the product of a millennia-long breeding program to create a superhuman able to see the future) – is extremely powerful and thus dangerous; he must be tested. The test involves placing his hand into a machine which creates ever increasing amounts of pain. At the same time, a deadly poisoned needle – the gom jabbar – is placed at his neck. If he removes his hand to avoid the pain, he will be killed instantly by the poisoned needle.

The test determines if the subject is human. Most animals would naw their leg off to avoid the pain of a trap, and a human who can not control his deepest impulses would do the same. In order for Paul to prove he is human and capable of denying current pleasure or pain for future positives, he must submit to tremendous amounts of pain. This is what it means to be a well-adjusted human being in this world, and Paul Atreides (with his tremendous potential for power) must be shown to be such a thing, or he can not be allowed to continue in the world.

Here is Mr. Herbert once again, explaining the concept another way (from Dune):

The Fremen were supreme in that quality the ancients called “spannungsbogen” — which is the self-imposed delay between desire for a thing and the act of reaching out to grasp that thing.

How many politicians in today’s Washington would be able to pass a less lethal version of the gom jabbar test? How many of them would be willing to accept suffering and defeat in their political careers in order to protect vitally important tenets of our Republic for the future of the country?


https://www.tampafp.com/weller-the-woman-who-may-have-saved-the-republic/

Gomez Chamberlain
Mar 22, 2005

Subakh ul kuhar!

quote:

I can only think of two, Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin. They faced the gom jabbar and chose the pain.

These waterfat city dwellers lmao

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009



At least the author goes out of his way to show that there's no doubt he's missed the point of the books.
Saves anyone else the trouble.

Bubblyblubber
Nov 17, 2014
she spans my nungs til i bogen

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016

R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Just Another Lurker posted:

In the movie one of the Sardukar says the storm is causing shield issues and that they should return to space.

Ah, I forgot that bit. Villeneuve Dune is six hours of "underling says correct thing, then gets either ignored or eaten"

Soul Dentist posted:

From the current events thread

Aaggh, that writing style is like wading through custard. Brevity- to speak briefly, and succinctly- is, it has been said, been compared by various luminaries to the very essence- the fundamental essentials- the core spirit- the central character- of that state of rapid mental acuity which the western mind is accustomed to accord the designation of, if i may be so bold, "wit"; and furthermore

Bubblyblubber posted:

she spans my nungs til i bogen

lol

Shaddak
Nov 13, 2011

I'm choosing to pretend this is about Dune.

Mister Speaker
May 8, 2007

WE WILL CONTROL
ALL THAT YOU SEE
AND HEAR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ILoGcSxCAY

Soul Dentist
Mar 17, 2009

Cooool

Mister Speaker
May 8, 2007

WE WILL CONTROL
ALL THAT YOU SEE
AND HEAR
Legit forgot worm grunting was a thing until someone shared that video in another thread. I wonder if it influenced Frank's ideas about the worms being attracted to, essentially, sound.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Mister Speaker posted:

Legit forgot worm grunting was a thing until someone shared that video in another thread. I wonder if it influenced Frank's ideas about the worms being attracted to, essentially, sound.

Woodcocks literally walk with rhythm to attract the worm(s).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF3-LvmHM4E

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003
There’s a horribly gross invasive worm destroying the Northeast right now, and I can attest that I have called Shai Hulud in this manner as a means of defending my garden.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
IIRC the trick is that earthworms interpret the rhythmic thumping as the sound of rain, and come towards the surface so they don't drown in wet dirt.

Jewmanji
Dec 28, 2003

Torquemada posted:

The Fremen are not jihad-y enough. If I remember the book correctly, they're absolutely religious loonies. The film has religion be optional to Fremen, to the point that Chani and her friends are happy taking the piss out of Stilgar while he's praying: it also portrays them as super insular, and dedicated completely to Arrakis and their vision of it. They don't seem like they're so religious they'd go on a massive crusade to convert the galaxy, anyway.

Religion isn't "optional", there are just degrees of orthodoxy. Stilgar is a fundamentalist who believes in the Lisan Al-Gaib. Chani and her friends clearly believe in a coming salvation, it's just a question of whether it's going to come from the outer world or whether it's going to be a Fremen. We're shown a number of times that people have varying degrees of faith in the prophecy (Stilgar, Jamis, the council of elders Stilgar consults with etc.) It's not really clear which Fremen are northern and southern at times, but the fact that Jessica takes the water of life in the North indicates that there are still plenty of very observant people who are into ritualized religion who aren't considered southern fundamentalists.

Also the "insularity" is consistent with the book. There are no intimations at any point until the very end that Kynes or any Fremen had ambitions beyond the terraforming project. The jihad was invented as a consequence of Paul's arrival.

Torquemada posted:

so much better than it's source material they might as well be different properties entirely.

I really love both of movies (Dunc 2 in particular) but cmon.

Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 16:28 on May 7, 2024

Alucard
Mar 11, 2002
Pillbug
Guess RFK Jr. read children and GEoD and decided to pursue the Golden Path. Turns out the worms need to go on your outside though.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
i spent the money to buy :brainworms: and it was worth it

SniperWoreConverse
Mar 20, 2010



Gun Saliva
they were real, and strong, all along

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS
RFK talks without rhythm so that he won’t attract the worm.

ghouldaddy07
Jun 23, 2008

Platystemon posted:

RFK talks without rhythm so that he won’t attract the worm.

Lol

DebonaireD
May 7, 2007

I have a little theory and I wanted to see if there are any takers here:
You know how we all make fun of Ix for not knowing that their name is derived from Roman numerals? What if the same thing has happened with CHOAM? It occured to me when I heard someone pronounce it with a Yiddish kha- sound instead of a cha-. It might be a backronym. The whole bits and pieces of different languages leading to a kinda nonsense name for their mercantile empire seems a little implausible, so what if it's a corruption of chaim instead? And the whole thing is a somewhat thinly veiled jewish banker stereotype instead, I suppose.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
there's actual jews in the later books. unlike the zensunni thing they're recognizably just normal jews

Prolonged Panorama
Dec 21, 2007
Holy hookrat Sally smoking crack in the alley!



Galach is "hybrid Inglo-Slavic," so throwing all European languages in to a blender seems about right, but I agree it's a clumsy name.

They should have just kept the long form, NOAMCHOMSKI.

My PIN is 4826
Aug 30, 2003


There's this in the UK as well, which seems fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayQkFgQsQxY

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

bob dobbs is dead posted:

there's actual jews in the later books. unlike the zensunni thing they're recognizably just normal jews

They are slightly weird Jews tbf. The rabbi says God’s name like it ain’t nothin and several times quotes the apostle Paul. Kind of funny

Tree Bucket
Apr 1, 2016

R.I.P.idura leucophrys

skasion posted:

They are slightly weird Jews tbf. The rabbi says God’s name like it ain’t nothin and several times quotes the apostle Paul. Kind of funny

This bitter Herb we read...

Just Another Lurker
May 1, 2009

skasion posted:

They are slightly weird Jews tbf. The rabbi says God’s name like it ain’t nothin and several times quotes the apostle Paul. Kind of funny

+25,000 years of cultural drift, even if they have their own wild reverend mothers... not to mention the Muslim/Buddhist fusion that gave us Fremen to begin with.

Bubblyblubber
Nov 17, 2014
the rabbi never once goes "oy vey, the vorm", very inauthentic jews, do better frank

Mister Speaker
May 8, 2007

WE WILL CONTROL
ALL THAT YOU SEE
AND HEAR
Creating a no-room is the exact kind of rules lawyering that pleases Hashem.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

I don't think this ever made it here but I might have missed it



https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6MX7whriHq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost
i remember reading about that in the thread in like 2018

kalel
Jun 19, 2012

cool story. wish he had told it on any other podcast or medium

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Monica Bellucci
Dec 14, 2022

Bubblyblubber posted:

the rabbi never once goes "oy vey, the vorm", very inauthentic jews, do better frank

Also never hankers for some Chinese.

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